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PostPosted: 07 May 2015, 22:37 
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Hi all

Some of you may know me as I've been a part of the ENB community for some time now. Pretty much since the Skyrim screenshot thread started. Others may have never seen me here at all. I have been very busy with my new baby boy this year, so I apologize for my brief departure.

I would like to know what your opinions are on soliciting donations for your ENB preset? I have started doing this myself recently. However, the amount of lash back from the community has been very harsh. I feel as though most do not appreciate what it is we provide them. It's very sad actually to see such self-entitlement from those who have created nothing, but expect so much for free. It's something we all put up with when host our content, but it drove me to make the decision to request donations as I was tired of putting up with a user base that overall is dis-respectful towards modders.

So far, requesting donations has created a clear separation between those who support my work whole-heartily, and those who simply just want to take what I have and give, offering absolutely nothing in return. Not even positive feedback, a simple endorsement, and most certainly not a donation.

Please let me know your thoughts on the matter.

~far327

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Last edited by far327 on 09 May 2015, 09:17, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2015, 23:58 
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well when stuffs is free, spoil fking kids will bitch like you owe them shit. Now if they pay for it, jesus help us. Those fktards act like you owe them your life. So at the end of the day ask yourself is it worth it?

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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 00:10 
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charlievoviii wrote:
well when stuffs is free, spoil fking kids will bitch like you owe them shit. Now if they pay for it, jesus help us. Those fktards act like you owe them your life. So at the end of the day ask yourself is it worth it?


Damn that's funny!! And so accurate from my experience so far with this!

Is it worth it? Yes I believe it is, because things will never change unless we change how we host our content. It will turn ugly no doubt, but many do support the idea of giving back to modders. Consider me the guinea pig :)

There are only 250 active ENBs on Nexus currently. Could you imagine if even just half moved to a pay model?

Overall, The Steam Workshop "Pay for Mods" program was defeated because the Skyrim download user base objected to the idea of paying for mods. The majority of modders on the other hand would of probably liked to get something for their hard work. But the problem is modders only make up 5 to 10% of the overall Skyrim community. Therefore, their opinions were over shadowed by the downloader user base hissy fit.

Let's face it guys, our voices on the matter have been hi-jacked. This is my way of retaliating! Would anyone else like to join me?

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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 07:08 
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far327 wrote:
But the problem is modders only make up 5 to 10% of the overall Skyrim community. Therefore, their opinions were over shadowed by the downloader user base hissy fit.

I saw somewhere recently (maybe it was a steam user info thing?) that less than 1% of PC Skyrim owners have ever opened the Creation Kit... I wonder if it's even up to the 5% you suggested of the modding community that actually creates mods of any sort...

Anyways, back to the original topic... I'm a bit torn. First of all, my preset, and I know others as well, is a conglomerate of various bits of content from various different authors and I created very little. The only files I have any claim to as my own are the enbseries.ini and weather .ini settings. Also, some of the work on my included weather mod (modified version of Opeth_Weather). If we, as an ENB community, decided to start charging for presets, we'd have to figure out how such things are handled. I mean, how many of us use code that was originally developed by Matso, kingeric, prod80, JawZ, HeliosDoubleSix, or any of the plethora of other great coders? I don't know how free I'd feel to sell without permission to do just that from those that my files are either directly or indirectly derived from (so far I have used either free-to-use mod resource or permission granted contented.)

In addition, if I started selling content, I'd feel like I had an obligation to provide professional level tech support, because they actually PAID for it. If I pay for something, I expect it to work and work as advertised, or if it doesn't, I expect it fixed or my money back (within a reasonable time period of course.)

Further, a lesson we should take from the previous Steam Workshop fiasco, is that selling an updated version, or the same version of something that previously was free is going to result in a vitriolic spew of hate filled vomit right back in our faces. I'm not entirely sure how I stand on it morally either. Until X date, everyone who downloaded Y content got it for free. After X date, everyone who downloads Y content has to pay, even though there are no changes. Is that right? I don't know.

Another consideration, if someone downloads the preset, finds it's just not their taste or has some other issue, will you refund their purchase within a certain time frame? And how do you ensure that they don't keep the content? I know I've tried dozens of presets in my time. You can't REALLY know how it's going to look until you try it in your own game. There were some presets that just looked beautiful, I actually installed it and I had a bloomy mess of bleeding colors all over my screen (these also tend to be very popular.) Others looked ok or even meh in the screenshots, but when applied to my game looked fantastic. Still others looked just as advertised, but once I saw it on my game decided it was too distracting or not my style... and every other reaction you can imagine. I think we could expect some serious buyer's remorse in potentially a lot of cases.

There are a few other things I could think of. But in the larger scope of things, I don't really have a problem selling any preset. It would be nice if we could come to some sort of standard as a community. If all or even most of ENB authors went this way, it might curb some of the entitled vomit with a statement akin to "This is the new standard going forward. Sorry you don't like it, but this is hard work!" I would LOVE to get paid for downloads of my preset. It took me a LOT of hours to get what I have... I know you, far, and others have put in much, much more time than I. Like I said at the beginning, I'm a bit torn. I'd love to be able to sell my preset, or request donation and give access... but I'm a worried of what this will do to ENB and what ramifications it could have in the wider modding community. Obviously, we can make our own choice, as you have, and I completely support that. However, piecemeal, individual efforts on this front I'm afraid will cause some presets to simply die, never to be used, because there's something else, free, that suits their needs just as well. If there were a concerted move, from the majority of authors, to move to a pay model for future updates and new works, then it could work.

That's my take for now, I realize it's a bit... rambly... especially toward the end... but I'm honestly pretty tired right now and I should probably go to bed. I'd be curious to hear what others say about the idea... especially people like Aiyen who have their ear closer to the community through the S.T.E.P. forums or other sources.

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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 10:39 
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I have lots of reasons why I don't want to sell my ENB so i prefer people can get it for free and some of the other reasons I agree with Jafin

But yeah it would be very nice if i can get little paid for (example) any multiples per 100 downloads or something :p

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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 15:50 
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@jafin16

You make some really valid points. All of which I took into consideration.
Supporting a mod is no different than Nexus. And honestly you will likely have to support less people simply because less people will download the ENB once it's for donate only. It can't get much worse than Nexus support at this point, why not get something in return for that support?

It's true that most enbs are a derivative of others work, you would either need permission from specific people or make changes on your own for your preset. If you have files that are dependent, simply don't include those files and upload them or link them separately. For instance, I don't include any of minflux texture edits or jawz files. But I've made it clear they are required.

Don't discount the value of your ini settings. At the end of the day those settings are what make your ENB different from others. Consider the amount of time, focus and creative vision you put into creating your ini files. The downloading community thinks ENB creators are no more than people who edit an original painting and use Photoshop to change a few things to call it there own. I think that is quite insulting and i want to change this perspective. Our content completely changes the visual experience of Skyrim to the point that it looks like a whole differnt game. No other mod has this value. The only reason enbs lack value in the eye of the download user base is because there are so many to choose from.

I have no issue with requesting donations for my preset now after it was free before. I have given away over a dozen presets and offered endless support. If anything the download user base should feel bad for me lol!

I have it setup for donations. I did this to allow the user to choose how much they want to give. I have no problem refunding people as long as they have valid reason to request a refund. If they choose to keep or share my files, there is nothing I can do to stop them. But honestly, that is what comes with this territory.

I don't fear the reaction of the download user base. They have always given me headaches when it was free. They will give us headaches no matter what. Might as well level the playing field a bit.
Respect is not given, you have to earn it. I believe this is how the modding community can do that in the long term. ENB presets are in a unique position to change things because our content falls under the ENB license. Technically our content is the only content for skyrim that can legally be sold or solicited for donation. I say we take advantage of this opportunity.

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Last edited by far327 on 08 May 2015, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 18:20 
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No with ENB this will never be possible. I am so thankful for many ENB's like NLA, CR, TAZ and of course Boris etc. but think of all the stuff that's used from masters like matso, kingeric etc. makes it hard to charge for this. Also I need to test an ENB. Maybe three of one hundred ENB's which are looking good on pictures look good during personal testing. The rest has some serious ugly parts.

No offense but all the focus on money right now sucks! Mod authors are hiding their mods and complain about the hard work which is not appreciated enough. Than stop doing this if it's so time consuming and ennoying sometimes. I understand that you want to tribute for you work and that's absolutely ok but don't expect money for modding! You are wrong here. You are doing this for fun, for others and especially for yourself. I don't mod but sometimes I give piano recitals. I spent thousends of hours practicing, day for day. Most of the time I get no money for this. Sometimes people complain about this and that which should be played different, they want this peace and that an so on. But it does not matter because mostly I do it for myself. Personal enrichment you know... If you want money for this, well as I said, you shouldn't do this anymore.

But of course there are excpetions. Look at Nehrim/Enderal. That deserves money because it costs a lot of money. Money, not personal time!


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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 18:45 
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Kontrapunkt wrote:
No with ENB this will never be possible. I am so thankful for many ENB's like NLA, CR, TAZ and of course Boris etc. but think of all the stuff that's used from masters like matso, kingeric etc. makes it hard to charge for this. Also I need to test an ENB. Maybe three of one hundred ENB's which are looking good on pictures look good during personal testing. The rest has some serious ugly parts.

No offense but all the focus on money right now sucks! Mod authors are hiding their mods and complain about the hard work which is not appreciated enough. Than stop doing this if it's so time consuming and ennoying sometimes. I understand that you want to tribute for you work and that's absolutely ok but don't expect money for modding! You are wrong here. You are doing this for fun, for others and especially for yourself. I don't mod but sometimes I give piano recitals. I spent thousends of hours practicing, day for day. Most of the time I get no money for this. Sometimes people complain about this and that which should be played different, they want this peace and that an so on. But it does not matter because mostly I do it for myself. Personal enrichment you know... If you want money for this, well as I said, you shouldn't do this anymore.

But of course there are excpetions. Look at Nehrim/Enderal. That deserves money because it costs a lot of money. Money, not personal time!


Hi Kontrapunkt

First off thanks for taking the time to voice your opinion. I see where you are coming from with your perspective. I used to play in a few different local bands. We to practiced non-stop and played at many local venues for free. What we did however was had merchandise available for people who wanted to give whatever they felt it was worth. We didn't ask for any money directly or set a price on it.

Are you a modder? Have you created any ENB presets? Just curious, as I am trying to understand the point of view of others, and it's important to know if you are coming from a modders perspective, or the downloaders perspective.

Thanks

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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 20:01 
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I guess I am just going to be blunt and say... do not do it.

Unless you happened to create all of the shaders you use on your own, then I do not feel like you are entitled to actually sell anything. Yes I am very much aware of the amount of time and effort that goes into creating a preset via tweaking. But let us be honest... the real magic is in the shaders behind the scenes. Those are what make it all possible. And even then it is only really Boris´s .dll that make it all possible to begin with since it contains all the really difficult coding. Without that you would be left with just SweetFX or Reshade etc. And there you can be sure you wont be able to sell anything.

If you are using any shaders not made from the ground up by yourself... you are at the very least being a douche to the people who shared their hard work with the community, and at worst some sort of legal takedowns are going to happen eventually. Since what you said that presets are the only thing that legally is possible to sell.. is just not true. Most of the code can in most cases can be traced back to a license agreement.

I have personally created all but one of the ENB used shaders from the ground up in my Skylight preset... But even though most of the code have almost nothing to do with the originals. Then I still would not feel like charging for that... since it would again at the very least be a douche move against the creative and talented people I got my inspiration from, and I honestly do not want to bother with the legal parts down the road.

Add on top of all this, if your preset use any of the extra .dll... ie if you use time of day... you cant do it since you cant sell the .dll that make it possible, and without it you got no product at all.
Also you cant include any SMAA, or the like.. because that piece of code does have a very clear license agreement you can read.
Finally if you use any .esp then you are again going in to the whole... you had used the CK eventually in the process, which means that bethesda can come knocking any day if they so please, because their terms for use of the CK are quite clear.


All of that aside.. I can understand why you feel like you have given so much, and it is only fair to ask for something in return, but at the end of the day, that should come from donations not from retail.


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PostPosted: 08 May 2015, 20:22 
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Aiyen wrote:
I guess I am just going to be blunt and say... do not do it.

Unless you happened to create all of the shaders you use on your own, then I do not feel like you are entitled to actually sell anything. Yes I am very much aware of the amount of time and effort that goes into creating a preset via tweaking. But let us be honest... the real magic is in the shaders behind the scenes. Those are what make it all possible. And even then it is only really Boris´s .dll that make it all possible to begin with since it contains all the really difficult coding. Without that you would be left with just SweetFX or Reshade etc. And there you can be sure you wont be able to sell anything.

If you are using any shaders not made from the ground up by yourself... you are at the very least being a douche to the people who shared their hard work with the community, and at worst some sort of legal takedowns are going to happen eventually. Since what you said that presets are the only thing that legally is possible to sell.. is just not true. Most of the code can in most cases can be traced back to a license agreement.

I have personally created all but one of the ENB used shaders from the ground up in my Skylight preset... But even though most of the code have almost nothing to do with the originals. Then I still would not feel like charging for that... since it would again at the very least be a douche move against the creative and talented people I got my inspiration from, and I honestly do not want to bother with the legal parts down the road.

Add on top of all this, if your preset use any of the extra .dll... ie if you use time of day... you cant do it since you cant sell the .dll that make it possible, and without it you got no product at all.
Also you cant include any SMAA, or the like.. because that piece of code does have a very clear license agreement you can read.
Finally if you use any .esp then you are again going in to the whole... you had used the CK eventually in the process, which means that bethesda can come knocking any day if they so please, because their terms for use of the CK are quite clear.


All of that aside.. I can understand why you feel like you have given so much, and it is only fair to ask for something in return, but at the end of the day, that should come from donations not from retail.


Hi Aiyen

All of your points are valid. You have brought up items of topic that I hadn't even thought about. I am not actually selling anything. What I am requesting are donations.. The amount someone wishes to donate is up to them. I am not out right selling anything.
I am simply soliciting the downloader to consider donating and to show my appreciation, I am providing them with something in return as thanks. If they choose not to, they can download any of my other dozen or so presets I have available.

I may be a douche for doing it this way, but it's still a donation with something given for free as a thank you. Not an uncommon practice for most organizations that are requesting donations. And it's not one preset they are given. It's anything I create in the future as well.

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